Introducing Second Lives, a brand new podcast series from TEBI

Since 2016, The TEBI Podcast has interviewed the great and the good from the world of investing, money management and personal finance. But it’s going to start looking at a fresh theme — the pursuit of happiness, and how to lead the life you really want. As ROBIN POWELL explains, Jonathan Hollow is presenting a 12-part series called Second Lives, produced in conjunction with the London-based financial planning firm Mulberry Bow, and the first episode is now online.

In How To Fund The Life You Want, the book I wrote with Jonathan Hollow, we began with purpose and meaning, then moved on to money and investing. Because that’s the way life should be. Money is for life, not the other way round.

While we were writing the book, we experienced the great turmoil of the pandemic. Among many other transformations, it has challenged millions of people, not least those in their 40s and 50s, to ask what they really wanted out of work. And whether what they were earning was paying for a life they actually wanted to lead. Was a second life possible?

Meanwhile, office culture has been turned upside-down. The traditional office space is no more. Hybrid working is the norm; the four-day week is moving from a mass social experiment to something more like an expectation; and people changing jobs are increasingly confident in asking for arrangements that suit their home life.

Jonathan Hollow and I thought it would be fascinating to look at all these trends in depth. We have chosen to do so through two lenses: personal experience, complemented by evidence-based expertise. Each interview will be in-depth with one person, to really probe what they are saying (and feeling) about meaning and money in later life.

We have sought out people whose second careers are ambitiously, dramatically different from their first. Among other fascinating characters you will meet:

a company finance director who is now studying ancient poetry
a lawyer who has become an internationally renowned wine expert
and a remarkable entrepreneur who, starting after the age of 50, built a business that reaches up and down the length of Britain.

We will also interview a fascinating array of experts. The first podcast is with Andrew Hallam. He is the perfect place to start because he’s both an expert author and someone who’s living a remarkable second life: nomadic, compassionate, charitable and generous. Andrew has boundless curiosity, optimism and wisdom combined in equal measure.

I’m pleased to hand the microphone to Jonathan Hollow for this series. And just as importantly, I’m truly grateful to the financial planning firm Mulberry Bow, who have worked with us to support and develop this series. They are the type of financial planning firm Jonathan and I both strongly approve of: they don’t sell any products of their own, just the best of other people’s; and they don’t set their team sales targets. Instead, they focus on providing a highly personal, “boutique” service to around 150 clients. You will hear snippets from their founder, Simon Bullock, throughout the series.

Do listen to the first episode with Andrew Hallam and don’t forget to subscribe in your podcast app so that you get a new episode each month.

As well as Spotify, you’ll find The TEBI Podcast on all the major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts, Listen Notes, PlayerFM and Podbean.

TRANSCRIPT

The transcript below has been lightly edited for clarity and length.

Please note, the copyright on this interview belongs to The Evidence-Based Investor. If you wish to quote any of it, you are required to attribute it to TEBI. We also request that you include a hyperlink to this article. We regularly monitor the internet for breaches of copyright, and any such infringements are dealt with appropriately.

Jonathan Hollow: I’m Jonathan Hollow and, together with Robin Powell, I published a book last year called How to Fund the Life You Want. Our book deals with money and investing, but it also looked at the evidence behind long-term purpose and happiness. I’m living out the lessons of our book. I left full-time work; I’m fulfilling my long-term dream of studying ancient history; and as I present this new monthly series for The Evidence-Based Investor, I’m going to talk to 12 fascinating people who are either living out their second lives or who are experts on money and meaning in later life. This episode begins the series with Andrew Hallam.

Born in Nottingham, but rooted in Canada, he’s an author, communicator, and teacher who has lived an enormously varied life. His latest book Balance is the ideal introduction to this series. In it, he distills wisdom and evidence about what makes people happy and how they can manage money and investments to support a happy life. I’m truly delighted to be interviewing Andrew on this first episode.

Andrew, when you were 19, you had a formative experience about money, which shaped your thinking for several decades. Can you tell us about that moment and how it shaped you, especially when you went on to work as a teacher?

Andrew Hallam: It was at a summer job that I was doing. So I was paying my way through college. I was 19 years old and I was working at a bus depot. So essentially, you know, city buses would come in at the end of the night, at the end of the shift, and I would fuel them and then drive them through an automated bus wash.

We were under the supervision of a series of mechanics. And the rumour was that one of these mechanics was a millionaire. A self-made millionaire. And that, if he ever talked to me about money, I should make sure that I listened to him! And honestly, Jonathan, it didn’t make sense to me. I knew generally what his salary would’ve been; and so the idea that this guy who was 46 or 47 when I met him … the idea that this guy is just working because he enjoys it and actually had a million dollars: it made no sense to me whatsoever. But, one day he sat me down and he asked me some questions. And I’d say that moment really changed my life.

He asked me: “What would you do if I gave you $10,000 right now?” And I thought, “Oh my God, this guy is gonna give me money!” I said to him: “Well, I’d put it towards my schooling.” And years later he said to me, “You know what? I remember that conversation, and if you had told me that you would be buying a new car or, you know, a stereo for your car or whatever, I probably wouldn’t have talked to you again unless I had to.”

He sat me down and he said to me, “Look … you want to be a school teacher? School teachers don’t get paid bucket loads of money. They’re a lot like mechanics, but you are doing this because you want to do it. You found a career that you’re passionate about. And this is a good thing. You don’t have to choose a career based on high income that you’re not necessarily really keen about. In fact, you could do something you enjoy that pays you a middle-class income, but if you become financially literate, you can end up having much more money, more than most of the people that are earning double and triple your salary over time.”

And so he showed me how compound interest worked. He talked to me about needs versus wants. He talked to me about advertising and about how most of society is completely brainwashed to buy stuff that they don’t need. They spend far more than they should. They often borrow money to do it. And he said that that doesn’t lead to a helpful life for anybody because you know, stuff doesn’t really create happiness for people.

Jonathan Hollow: And then you set out on a path that implemented some of those things you’ve learned. But you also say in your book – I love your honesty – you also describe yourself as a becoming or acting like a “frugal weirdo”.

Andrew Hallam: It was in my 20s when I realised the power of compounding interest and realised that, the more money I could invest, the faster I could reach financial independence – but I did some pretty crazy things. At one point, I rented a place, I lived in a place that was 55 kilometres from where I worked, and I wanted to save money on rent, and this rent was cheap. And I figured, “Wow, if I ride my bike 55 kilometres to work and back, I can end up paying so little in rent and not pay any fuel for the car!”

Jonathan Hollow: You set out in your book some evidence about what I would call the ‘shape of happiness’ that people typically experience in their lives – with particular respect to their 20s and then their late 40s or early 50s. What is that general shape?

Andrew Hallam: Yes, it’s U-shaped. And so by that what I mean is when you are in your early 20s, the world is your oyster. Generally, when we look at global surveys on overall life satisfaction, it’s very high for most of us in our early 20s. But what happens is, expectations start being put on our shoulders. Some of those expectations are genuine: we need shelter, we need a place to live, we need to get a job. But coupled with those genuine expectations are the ‘smoke and mirror expectations’ that we just perceive, but don’t really exist. So they are the ‘keeping up with the Joneses’ expectations. If I don’t get this job, what will people think of me? Or, if I pursue this kind of job, I can have some sort of status within my neighbourhood? If I buy this kind of house, if I buy this kind of car …? And it’s interesting, Jonathan, because what that ends up doing is it actually ends up dragging us down.

The U drops into our 30s, into our 40s. It gets to the point where we are basically living a life for other people without realising it! And what the research suggests is that in most cases, once we get into our early 50s, the Joneses do not matter.

You just stop caring about what other people think. In fact, really, you become much more secure in your own skin.

Don’t wait until your 50s before you realise the smoke screen in terms of the pressures of society that are figments of our imagination. Don’t let them weigh you down. Be who you are and be comfortable in your own skin. People are not going to like you any more for driving a fancy car.

Jonathan Hollow: There are so many things I love about Balance. It has such a great combination of evidence and really challenging, practical tips. And one of the things I really love about it – so I’d like to ask you to explain that now – is you have this simple metaphor for what makes a balanced and happy life.

And it’s a table with four legs …

Andrew Hallam: If I ask somebody why they have achieved something that they’ve achieved, whether it’s a PhD, or they’ve run a marathon, or why they are raising their children a certain way … eventually, if I continue to dig with the question “Why?” – it eventually boils down to people saying, “Well, it makes me happy … this is what I want to do. It makes me happy.”

So then Jonathan, if that’s the case, success equals life satisfaction. Full stop. Full stop. That’s it. Success isn’t the big house on the hill, big money, big car. So then I come to my four-legged table. So one of the legs, yes, is the money leg. We need money. We need enough money for shelter. We need enough money to help pay for the experiences that we enjoy with friends, and we need enough money to be able to save for our future.

So that’s one component. Another component, of course, is our physical and mental health. That’s huge. Our body. We have one vessel. We don’t have to all be Olympians, but the idea is that we do what we can with what we have. I have a friend who was hit by a car, and he’s a partial quadriplegic, but in the health pillar of that table, he’s got it going on, because he does what he can do with what he has.

The third element of it, and by far the most important element of this table is relationships, having people you love around you.

And then the final pillar, is a pillar of purpose. So many people will be asking themselves: “What is my purpose? Andrew says I must have a purpose,” and they’re expecting some kind of divine light to give them this life purpose. It doesn’t have to be super grand. It can just be as simple as a part-time job.

Jonathan Hollow: So with those four pillars: money, relationships, health and purpose, I want to dig a little bit deeper into each. Because you have so many interesting things to say about them in the book. And if we start with money – you’ve touched on this before in the conversation so far. We can do so much with money: we can buy things, we can buy experiences, we can buy help. But you have some really interesting things to say about the problem of what you call ‘hedonic adaptation’, which is when we get overexcited by the power of money to buy us things. Can you say a little bit about some of the evidence you review in the book about that? And I’m particularly interested in your research into the the cars driven by the rich.

Andrew Hallam: Well, first of all, a car is a depreciating asset, and a brand new car is and always will be. And people who try to be efficient with their money recognise that.

Thomas Stanley studied millionaires from 1973 until his death just a handful of years ago, and his daughter Sarah Stanley Fallaw, has continued his research. They have done more research on millionaires than anybody in the world, and here’s what he found. If you ask the typical multimillionaire how much they spent on their latest car, the figure would completely astound most people. For deca-millionaires, it was in the region of about $45,000 – so that’s people with $10 million and more. I had a little apartment in Victoria, British Columbia; and there’s a parking garage down below. I would say 30% of those cars, Jonathan, were worth more than that. Yet that’s what the typical deca-millionaire in the United States paid for their latest vehicle.

Given that relationships are the most important component of life satisfaction, do you really want to be driving around, flipping the middle finger to everybody? I mean, let’s be really honest about this. When you drive through a poor neighbourhood or a middle-class neighbourhood in your Ferrari or Lamborghini, you might as well be flipping the bird to everybody who you pass. And envy is not a good thing. And this is one of the reasons why I think, Jonathan, that most of the world’s richest people actually drive day-to-day vehicles.

Jonathan Hollow: Probably everybody who’s brought a new car will have had a bit of a buzz at the beginning, and then that buzz fades, and that’s this concept of ‘hedonic adaptation’.

Andrew Hallam: Yes, exactly. There was a Michigan State University study (that was actually replicated in Germany as well), where people were asked, first of all, what kind of car they owned and how satisfied were they owning that particular car.

And what was found was that people who had very high-end vehicles – they would always say when you ask them, “Hey, you know, you’ve just bought the top of the line Mercedes-Benz. How do you feel about it? How much do you enjoy it?” They’ll always say, “I really enjoy it. Love this car. And the handling is an incredible, incredible vehicle.” This is what Nobel Prize winning behavioral economist, Daniel Kahneman, calls ‘reflective happiness’. It’s the happiness that we think must be occurring as a result of us owning one of these objects. But the research suggests that we find no higher actual day-to-day driving satisfaction. Whether we drive a top of line BMW or whether we drive a ten- year-old Honda Civic, it’s hedonic adaptability.

We simply get used to whatever it is that we own. We pine for the latest phone, the latest iPhone. Loads of people pine for that stuff.

Jonathan Hollow: So let’s move on to the second big leg of your table: relationships. You’re very big on pro-social activity, and you tell an interesting anecdote in the book about yourself and buying lunches … for strangers.

Andrew Hallam: Research suggests that on an emotional and a physiological level, we are benefited by helping other people. It actually lowers our blood pressure. It allows us to fight illnesses and infections if we donate.

And you’ve probably heard that before. But where it’s very powerful is when it’s what’s called ‘pro-social giving’, when you can actually see the benefit of what you’ve done.

And it doesn’t have to be big. So, You know, it really started with me the first time I was in my 20s and I went out for lunch with my sister and we were sitting in a cafe, and I didn’t have a lot of money. I didn’t need to have a lot of money. And I said to my sister, “Let’s pick someone here in this cafe. Let’s buy their lunch. Pick up their tab. Don’t let them know, not let anybody know. Just watch. Just to see.” So we called the server over and eventually my sister and I selected somebody and said, “Hey, that couple over there, we want their tab. They pay their lunch, but we don’t want you to let them know who paid. Just say it’s on the house.”

And we just loved watching. First, confusion. You know, they ask for the bill and there is no bill. The server would say, “Oh, somebody else picked up your tab”, or “It’s on the house.” And so it was confusion, and then it was delight … and we just sat back … for us, it was a bit of mischief, but we really enjoyed it. What did we spend? My sister and I might’ve split that. It was maybe $15 each (if that) – and we felt amazing. Pro-socially giving really does enhance your life satisfaction and your health.

Jonathan Hollow: That connects to another key theme that you write about in the book, which is that we are the sum of our experiences, and it’s the experiences and shared time with others that we particularly remember and value.

Andrew Hallam: Yeah. Spend money on experiences, especially if it brings you together with people that you love and respect. I like the ‘campfire story’ analogy … sitting around a campfire, you and your friends are not going to talk about the things you bought back in 2023. You’re going to talk about the dumb things you did, the laughs you had, the experiences that you shared. Those will be the stories and those are the things that make us who we are. Our experiences become part of our identities.

Jonathan Hollow: You yourself are a global traveller, so how do you manage to maintain and get the benefit of important relationships when you are on the move and not in one location?

Andrew Hallam: That’s a great question, Jonathan, because our lives are different. We’ve chosen something different that definitely wouldn’t be for everybody. But when we do go into a community, we often stay for several months and we get involved in community-based activities there right away. So we hit the ground running and we end up making connections with people.

And we often go back to those places and they feel like home. When we go back to a place where we feel loved. That’s how I define ‘home’. It’s wherever you feel loved.

One of the things that Pele and I love to do is we love to bring friends and family members to us. If they don’t have the financial means, then we pay for that. And the beauty of that too is it’s a cool way of us to give and then to see that joy and also nurturing the relationship that we have with those people. Spending what might be two weeks of concentrated time together, really connecting. Having spent far less on material things over my lifetime, having invested much more of that money instead of spending, it has obviously given us a surplus of money to do some cool things with it.

So, you know, when we went to Panama this winter, we contacted my sister and said, “Come to Panama. We’ll go to the ocean, we’ll go to the tropical beaches. We’ll go up to the mountains. You don’t have to pay for anything. We’ll pay for your flight. Everything is covered.” We were just able to connect and have just fabulous conversations in a really chilled environment.

Jonathan Hollow: I guess for some people it might take a bit of adaptation to accept that kind of gift.

Andrew Hallam: I think. Yeah, I think you’re right. For example, my mother and father wanted to buy a motor home, but they’re expensive and they didn’t have the money to pay for one. I don’t know how much time my dad has left, none of us knows how much time we have left. No matter how old we are, we always have to think about that. With my parents, I didn’t know how much longer they would be able to go camping. They loved that kind of thing too, to travel into the British Columbia parks in Western Canada. So, know, Pele and I offered to buy them a motor home, a really nice motor home. And it was really hard for my father to accept this.

So this is how I explained it to him. I said, “Dad, okay, imagine you and I are living right next to each other, and we both tinker in our garages. You know, we build things and we fix things. And I have three ten-millimetre wrenches. And a ten-millimetre wrench is something that we’d be using fairly frequently. Dad, imagine you don’t have a ten-millimetre wrench, and I have three. Dad, how many do I need? Let me give you the ten-millimetre wrench.” Once they accepted it, it was just this really cool, amazing moment and I’ll never forget it. In fact, the best money I’ve ever spent, Jonathan, by far.

Jonathan Hollow: So I want now to talk about the third leg of this metaphorical table, which is health. In the book you talk about this study that identified places called ‘Blue Zones’, where those health and relationships are in a very good balance. I wonder if you could just explain what you found out there.

Andrew Hallam: Yeah. I like this because it, it really does culminate everything we’ve been talking about so far, doesn’t it? There was a little town in the 1950s in Pennsylvania called Roseto, and it was found that people lived freakishly long lives in Roseto. So researchers descended on this town and tried to figure out what’s in the water, what are the people eating? Why do these people live so long? Why are cancer rates relatively low? Why is heart disease virtually non-existent? And they couldn’t find any kind of difference in their diets or their water. And in fact, they found the diets weren’t that great. A lot of people smoked. They ate a lot of sugary foods, deep fried stuff.

But these people had descended to Roseto originally from Sicily. And they had lived in a really tight, tight community in Italy and had established much the same kind of thing in Roseto, where the houses were quite close together. A very European style, you know, the old European style where houses were close together. In the United States, houses are all far apart.

What they had found was that, in Roseto, the people that did have money didn’t show it off. They maintained living in small homes. They purchased modest vehicles. They didn’t try to outshine their neighbours. There was always an open door policy where people’s children were running in and out of each other’s homes. They were kind of raising each other’s kids. It was very, very communal. In fact, they had 23 civic clubs and communities in this small town of 2,500 people. It was just such a tight community.

And then into the 1980s, what happened was many of the younger people got the sense of the American dream. “I wanna do better!” And so those people decided that they were going to build bigger houses. And buy plots of land. And they moved outside of the nucleus of the town and they bought fancier vehicles.

And so they drove a social wedge between themselves and the people that traditionally, historically, they would have been embracing. And so the town just became like a normal US town, you know, quite fractured. And today, people don’t live any longer in Roseto than in any other normal town in the United States.

Back to this concept of Blue Zones. When Dan Buettner wrote this fascinating book called Blue Zones, he wanted to identify, well, in which areas do people live the longest and why?

When they try to isolate the variables, define what is the common variable that allows people to live the longest and happiest they found it was much like the Roseto study. They found that it was where people had tight communities, where they spent time together.

Jonathan Hollow: Some of the people listening and to this will be thinking … “I live in a community that sounds almost the opposite of Roseto! There’s a lot of status obsession, there’s a lot of keeping up with the Joneses.” Have you got any practical tips or rules of thumb that you’ve built into the book that will help people to think differently and, and avoid that peer pressure, which can have such an influence on stress and health?

Andrew Hallam: Okay. Now this doesn’t sound like it’s anything like what we’re talking about … but … well, I’m not a big fella. I taught at a high school and it was fairly rough … most of the people were that came from blue-collar families and there would be teenage boys that would end up at some stage fighting.

Yet the fascinating thing was that if I got in, to separate the fight with one other teacher, we would be smaller and weaker than the boys fighting. But we could separate them quite easily.

Here’s why: a big part of them didn’t want to be fighting.

And so they would pretend to be fighting against me to get at their adversary, but there was a part of them that didn’t want to be fighting. There was a part of them that was pressured by everyone else, you know? There are people around. There’s an audience. And I think once we start talking about this with people, about the pressures of society to try to always keep up with other people, there’s a part in all of us that understands this. It recognises this urge which is basically societally created.

Jonathan Hollow: I’m going to now move on to your last big theme, which is purpose, and in relation to that, you talk about, in your book, you talk about a really remarkable, I think, quite radical person called Casey Coleman. Why is he such a striking and surprising example of purpose for you?

Andrew Hallam: He is one of the most extreme people I have ever met.

First of all, let me explain. He’s 80 years old. He walks about three hours a day. He does pushups every day. He can do 50 pushups without any problem. This is an 80 year old. He does yoga and meditation every day. He is supple, he is flexible, and he is strong. And for the last 30 years he has lived in a car. He is the absolute extreme case of anti-materialism. He has has fully embraced this non-denominational, spiritual side of who he is.

When I asked Casey, “What drives you when you go off on these walks? What are you thinking about?” He says, “Andrew, one of the things I do is I look at the stuff that people throw out, that they put on the ends of their driveways, where they throw into dumpsters or hanging out of dumpsters.” And I think we buy as a society so much junk, so much stuff that we don’t need. We buy so many ten-millimetre wrenches, you know, we buy to excess. And so he says, “When I see something that I think is functional that I think will help somebody, I pick it up.”

He takes it, puts it in the back of his car, and then he wanders through a community, generally a homeless community, an area where people could use something. He found a jacket, or he found a pair of shoes, and he gives them to these people. And he sits down with them and he talks to them. He asks them, “Together, could we perhaps form a plan to try to get you into a better place?”

And this isn’t always going to work. The cynics are going to listen to this and say, “Well, that’s not going work if someone’s on the streets and addicted to drugs and alcohol.” But sometimes that can be just the tipping point that’s required. For somebody who is ready, it could be a Casey Coleman who sits down, shares something, gives something, lends an ear. That’s Casey Coleman’s purpose.

Jonathan Hollow: He sounds like the most incredible guy and comes over very vividly in the book. Can I talk a little bit about you and plans and purpose? You’ve got to a very interesting position in life, and I think it’s, it’s clearly where you want to be. Is that because of a really clear plan or is it more because of a set of values, or has it been a dialogue between the two?

Andrew Hallam: It’s probably been a mix of everything because I didn’t plan for the global life we have. I write a regular column, which keeps me thinking, keeps me learning. I do a lot of speaking engagements throughout the world, so my wife and I will fly to a different country and often spend time there. And then we explore.

This was something we fell into. We were both teaching at an international school and my wife wanted to take a year off. And we had the financial means to do that. She wanted to take a year off to travel, and then one year led to two, which led to eight, which has led to nine.

And so, we’ve just continued to do it and we’ve really, we’ve really enjoyed it. And it’s not necessarily a life for everybody, but I’m doing what I enjoy doing and that’s sharing things with other people, sharing information and learning. Whether I’m teaching through my writing or whether I’m teaching through the talks that I’m giving, I’m really enjoying that. And establishing new friends and connections along that way through the process. I try to think of strangers as friends I haven’t met yet.

And I love seeing the world that way when we get invited to give a talk someplace, I Kelly and I know that at some stage we’re going to connect with at least one of those people, and one of those people will become a part of our lives in some way, maybe a small way or maybe a big way.

Jonathan Hollow: I wanted to talk to you a lot about meaning and purpose, because there’s so much great stuff in your book about that. But I should say that there’s a lot of really good stuff in the book about how to manage your everyday money, how to manage your investments. Have you had a financial plan since your early 20s? Have you had several financial plans? How has that developed over the course of the last 20, 25 years?

Andrew Hallam: That’s a good question. Fairly early on I wanted to see and figure out crudely, how much money I would need to be financially independent. So I knew that if I could be financially independent, I would have choices. And those choices could be, well, let’s quit. Or let’s take a volunteer position somewhere in, and perhaps that could be our career going forward, or let’s travel for several years and then potentially come back to a job that might be really, really fascinating, but hardly pay any money at all. So it gave us loads of options. I crudely tried to figure out how much money I would need, such that I could be financially independent, so I could theoretically do a volunteer position forever and be able to sustain my life.

I came up with a figure and then learned later – I suppose it was into the late 1990s – about the 4% rule.You can theoretically sell an inflation-adjusted 4% of your portfolio per year and the money should last at least 30 years. In many cases, you actually end up dying with more than you ended up starting with as a retiree! So that’s been something that I’ve wanted to continue to teach to people. And I haven’t at this stage, Jonathan, started to withdraw an inflation-adjusted 4%, just because my wife and I live fairly simply and we still have an income, although I have taken out large chunks of our investment portfolio to purchase things – generally for other people.

Jonathan Hollow: There may be people listening to this and thinking about purpose and saying, well, I don’t know whether I’ve got a purpose in my life, but I feel like I need a financial plan. Do you think those people are putting the cart before the horse if they develop a financial plan without really thinking deeply about purpose? Or do you think the two things can run in parallel?

Andrew Hallam: Perhaps the latter. Think about writing a book. You and I have both done that. We sat down and we outlined a book, and we both know that when we started writing, that outline changed. So you may have that financial plan, and then as you start your working life, you start to change the outline of your life’s book through that process. In fact there’s no concrete plan. “Now I sit down … and here’s my plan for life!” We don’t do that. Typically, we’ll come back and we revise it. I like that flow idea, the thing that you mentioned there, where we have both of them going at the same time, and they complement each other.

Jonathan Hollow: Well, look, Andrew, it’s been such a joy to speak to you. You have so many interesting things to say. I look forward to meeting you in real life. It will happen sooner rather than later.

Andrew Hallam: It will happen!

BUY ROBIN AND JONATHAN’S BOOK

How to Fund the Life You Want by TEBI founder Robin Powell and Jonathan Hollow is published by Bloomsbury. It was unanimously adjudged Work and Life Book of the Year at the Business Book Awards 2023. Although primarily aimed at a UK audience, it contains valuable lessons for readers everywhere.

Buy the book here on Amazon, or, if your prefer, here on bookshop.org.